White Box Rules Update/Re-design

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White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby merias » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:43 pm

I haven't given this a thorough read yet, but this looks to be a very good rewrite of the WB rules by Charles Mason, the PDF is free at Lulu:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/charles-mason/ ... 10097.html

Full disclosure - I noticed he made use of my Essential Adventuring Rules for S&W White Box. I'm glad that was useful in adding some of the missing bits of OD&D volume III to WB.
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby The Wanderer » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Hi Merias,
Thanks again for the "essential adventuring rules". They were much needed additions to White Box.

After you get a chance to look it over, let me know what you think and if you see anything that should be changed.

This is kind of a soft release. Hoping to fine tune the book a bit before the color cover comes in and POD is available.

Fight on!
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby merias » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:27 pm

No problem! That is a small part of the whole. White Box has needed a bigger face lift for quite some time, so thanks for taking that on.

Some initial comments:

- I noticed you corrected the sleep spell table, we were just discussing that here in another thread, a much-needed correction.
- The optional, simplified thief is a nice addition. I notice the halfling description seems to imply that halfling thieves cannot progress beyond 4th level, did you mean to limit that?
- Adding the morale check table is a nice addition.
- The dark elf description has this: "They raid surface-dwellers, elves who they hate the most." - When I read that I wasn't sure if they raid elves who live above ground, or all surface-dwellers, with particular hatred of surface elves. So that could probably be re-worded somehow.
- One potential layout issue I saw was that the left margin on odd pages is larger than on even, I only noticed it from scrolling through the pages quickly. Maybe this was intentional for the POD when it comes out?

I've been thinking about modifying my underworld wandering monster tables a bit, adding one table to select which table to roll on (much closer to the way OD&D works, so that you might get a third level monster on the first dungeon level, for example), and adding NPCs to the tables. If you think either of those are worth adding, I can update it (I probably will anyway, but I can do it sooner if you think you would like to incorporate it).
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby The Wanderer » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:08 pm

Halfling Thief Level
I kept the original White Box level limit for halflings and dwarves while allowing them to take the Thief class, but didn’t give it to elves. I was trying to keep it as similar to the original White Box as possible. But I’m open to changing this. What would you suggest?
Some games let all demi-humans have unlimited progression as a Thief but I don’t really like that. Maybe give them 2-3 more levels as a thief than their level limit in original WB. So Halfling could progress as a thief up to level 6 or 7? That would still allow for the human dominance in all classes.

Dark Elves
Good spot. I'll change it to "They raid all surface-dwellers, but especially elves who they hate the most."

Layout margin issue
It’s intentional. It will create a gutter for the print edition. I created the PDF with print in mind, but that brings up a good point. Once the print is out, I’ll update the PDF again to have the same margins.

Modifying your underworld tables.
Yeah, definitely. If that is something you want to do, that would be cool. I originally thought about taking the dungeon encounter tables from Delving Deeper which does it in the way you were thinking, but I decided to go with yours cause it already fit the WB monsters. So if you update it, I’ll add it to the PDF.

Thanks for extra set of eyes!
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby Mach Front » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:45 am

I've said as much on Google+, but this is exactly what WB needed and deserved and for years!

Thank you for shouldering this and having both the courage and the know-how to do so and...man...doing it well.

I spent the whole of the summer of 2010 proof-reading and taking tons of notes and whatnot to improve both rules-wise and errata-wise S&W:WB Second edition (BHP) which helped lead to the too-short-lived BHP 3rd edition before the odd shake-up that led to the both improved and lazily produced (not Matt Finch's fault, he admitted he wasn't a wiz with regards to layout and so forth) and "for forever" WB that was "left to the fans" and then, not abandoned, but allowed to be 'forever just and only' (which turned out to be a shame as it wasn't anywhere near as 'done' or nice-looking, etc. as it really deserved). What WB should have been both then and now is not what is was and is.

No hyperbole.... this is what WB should have been then and now. I'm not kidding: I truly believe that Marv Brieg and Matt Finch should fully endorse and embrace this as S&W:WB.
Hey. Maybe. We'll see. I'm thinking about contacting Marv at least as I was once a super-poster (loudmouth) on his T&T forums at Trollbridge. Heh. ;)

Though James Spahn as rightly been seen this last year or so as the WB champion, WB still has a lil gap: the Fiend Folio.

How cool would it be to have a FF-like supplement under 60 or so pages (so the Lulu version would be saddle-stitched and those who printed at home could do the same)? We would not need every single odd beastie, but...c'mon... Grells, Volts, Knorkers, Gythyanki, Firenewts, Death Knights, Slaad....yeah...all "White Box-ed". And someone who does wild-n-wooly-n-weird art *cough*James West *cough* or some such?
Oh.
Oh, yeah. With WB Fiend Folio-like bestiary I kick your a**. That's right mother****er!
Yeah, c'mon!
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby merias » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:13 am

The Wanderer wrote:Halfling Thief Level
I kept the original White Box level limit for halflings and dwarves while allowing them to take the Thief class, but didn’t give it to elves. I was trying to keep it as similar to the original White Box as possible. But I’m open to changing this. What would you suggest?
Some games let all demi-humans have unlimited progression as a Thief but I don’t really like that. Maybe give them 2-3 more levels as a thief than their level limit in original WB. So Halfling could progress as a thief up to level 6 or 7? That would still allow for the human dominance in all classes.


I'm fine with the level cap, I just wanted to make sure you meant to have it there. It can be easily house-ruled anyway, which certainly is in keeping with White Box and the language used in the halfling description.

Modifying your underworld tables.
Yeah, definitely. If that is something you want to do, that would be cool. I originally thought about taking the dungeon encounter tables from Delving Deeper which does it in the way you were thinking, but I decided to go with yours cause it already fit the WB monsters. So if you update it, I’ll add it to the PDF.


Yeah my lists were strictly limited to what was in the 3rd (...er, second third) print edition. I could also add the new monsters to the lists, do you happen to have a list of those you added?
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby merias » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:20 am

Mach Front wrote:How cool would it be to have a FF-like supplement under 60 or so pages (so the Lulu version would be saddle-stitched and those who printed at home could do the same)? We would not need every single odd beastie, but...c'mon... Grells, Volts, Knorkers, Gythyanki, Firenewts, Death Knights, Slaad....yeah...all "White Box-ed". And someone who does wild-n-wooly-n-weird art *cough*James West *cough* or some such?


FF is awesome! Not quite the same, but I like the original S&W Monster Book, which you can still get on Lulu (I think). It has conversion notes for WB (and other systems), which they sadly took out when Monstrosities was published. Same monsters, much less art, but also much cheaper :).
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby The Wanderer » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:27 pm

Merias,

List of monsters added

Death Knight
Demon, Imp
Demon, Succubus
Elf, Dark
Fairie Dragon
Giant, firbolg
Gnome
Golem, Glass
Golem, Wood
Kraken
Nightsteed
Nymph
sidhe
Stirge
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby The Wanderer » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:16 pm

Mach Front wrote:No hyperbole.... this is what WB should have been then and now. I'm not kidding: I truly believe that Marv Brieg and Matt Finch should fully endorse and embrace this as S&W:WB.
Hey. Maybe. We'll see. I'm thinking about contacting Marv at least


Wow, that is very kind of you. I'm humbled. Seriously. I wasn't sure if anyone would really like it.

Although seeing it as the official S&W WB would be cool. I'm not sure if it would be the best thing for the game. I like that we as the fans would have control of this version. I have already made some changes that some of you suggested. I'm not sure things like that could be done with it being official.
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Re: White Box Rules Update/Re-design

Postby merias » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:33 pm

Thanks, take a look at the new tables here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jnT ... sp=sharing

I removed a few creatures not obviously found in dungeons (like the Roc), added some of your new ones, and filled in the rest with NPCs of a given level, so each column now has a full 12 rows. I also created the random level table. All pretty arbitrary, of course, if you want to change things feel free.
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