Playing Pure Fighters

Discuss Swords & Wizardry Complete - Rules questions, commentary, house rules

Do you allow only fighters (not sub-classes) to have strength bonuses to-hit and damage?

Yes, but only for melee weapons
1
17%
Yes, BtB - for melee and missile weapons
2
33%
No, I give the melee weapon bonuses to the sub-classes, but only the pure fighter also gets the missile weapon bonus
0
No votes
No, I give all of these bonuses to the sub-classes too
1
17%
Hell no, I play White Box and no one has a strength bonus!
2
33%
 
Total votes : 6

Playing Pure Fighters

Postby merias » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:33 pm

Complete has that sidebar about why one would want to play a fighter or cleric, given that the sub-classes get some neat special abilities and have no ability score minimums. The balancing factor with fighters is that _only_ pure fighters get the strength bonuses to-hit and damage for melee weapons (using a strict interpretation of the OD&D source books). Fighters are made even more of a draw in that the strength bonuses apply to missile weapons - along with any dex bonuses. With the rate-of-fire for bows being 2/round, that makes a pure fighter a potentially devastating adversary from afar. I'm curious if anyone plays fighters by-the-book? Comments on if this is overpowered, or just right given the Paladin and Ranger abilities?
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby LouGoncey » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:13 pm

Sure, give fighters their bonuses. Seems like a lot, but it really is not when you think about it. Dungeon-bound how many rounds of missile combat are there? Not enough to really matter. Wilderness-bound, and the number of enemies goes up. Fighters kill a lot, but that is just prep work for melee.

Fighters special ability, the combat machine, is weaksauce when you look at it. It is only against 1HD creatures, and when you get to the levels when you actually gain something you rarely fight them anymore. (Delving Deeper tries to improve this by allowing multiple attacks against level 1-3 creatures, if I am recalling correctly.)

Just a postscript, but the sidebar about prerequisite stats needed to obtain classes like the Paladin should be actual rules IMHO. I use them...
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby merias » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:06 pm

[Welcome to the forums, btw] I think the only problem with the stat minimums is that if a player wants to run a paladin, say, they will find a way, whether through fudging rolls or just assigning a minimum score to any ability that needs it. The requirements mean more if the ref hands out ability scores. That would make the sub-classes very rare. But in the end the game is about having fun, and why shouldn't players get to play whatever class they want? So I think I like the S&W complete method better.
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby Bravesteel » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:11 pm

We are starting our campaign today, I'll be sure to give a report on it, but I will be only allowing Fighters to have the bonus to melee damage. Fighters have hardly anything as it is, and I was thinking Why would I want to play a Fighter? right when the information box came up in in the rulebook about it.

On the side discussion about ability score requirements, I plan on using these requirements, but I will allow my players to roll their abilities and place them in any order they desire and I will allow them to adjust at the +1/-2 ration suggested in the rules, but ONLY if the players do not have a ability score that would allow them to meet the requirements. AKA: No buffing Strength to 18 and Charismas going down to 6 even thought you already have the ability scores you need.
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby mordrene » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:11 pm

*** Thread hijack****

I have been thinking about boosting fighters, especially at higher levels. I cam up with using the concept of raises that savage worlds uses. when a fighter's attack roll is 4 more than the required AC of an opponent, one gains an extra d6 for damage. every raise gains an extra d6 so a hit that is 8 greater gains an additional 2d6. I need to playtest to see if i should increase the range of the raise. and do i give everyone, including monsters, this ability. If i do i will have different ranges like a ranger every 5 and a thief every 6.

what do you all think?
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby merias » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:05 pm

That's a neat idea. At low levels figure most baddies have an AC of 7[12] (leather or equivalent), so a fighter without any bonuses would need a 16 or higher to get the additional d6 damage at first or second level. If you have strength bonuses, even easier. But a base 25% chance in any case. That might be too easy for my tastes, at least at low levels. I'd be interested to hear how it played, however.
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby foxroe » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:32 am

mordrene wrote:*** Thread hijack****

I have been thinking about boosting fighters, especially at higher levels. I cam up with using the concept of raises that savage worlds uses. when a fighter's attack roll is 4 more than the required AC of an opponent, one gains an extra d6 for damage. every raise gains an extra d6 so a hit that is 8 greater gains an additional 2d6. I need to playtest to see if i should increase the range of the raise. and do i give everyone, including monsters, this ability. If i do i will have different ranges like a ranger every 5 and a thief every 6.

what do you all think?

I'm a BtB type of person (mostly), so this seems overpowered (to me). Maybe split the difference and say a result of 6 greater than the required to hit adds 1d6? I would only allow pure Fighters this ability.

Another thing to keep in mind, as merias pointed out, weaker (low HD) creatures tend to have lower AC's and hit points, so the extra damage may be lost on them, so to speak. That bandit won't care if you're doing 1d6 or 2d6 - he's likely dead or turning tail anyway. On the flip side, more challenging monsters (high HD) tend to have higher AC/HP, so while the extra damage is warranted (certainly from the perspective of the player/PC), it may be difficult to inflict due to the higher AC. I can't mathematically prove it, but I'd wager that everything is a wash and that the boost may not be worth the extra effort at the game table.

Anyway, just my 2 coppers.
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby Firemane » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:19 pm

Lenard Lakofka has some interesting ideas in his L4C The Lendore Isle Companion one of which might be used for the Fighter if you don't mind an extra dice roll. He uses weapon proficiencies to give fighters a 10% chance per level to deal an extra blow in a combat round. So the idea would to just straight up add this as a fighter ability. As the fighter increases in level the odds increase he gets an extra chance to hit and of course you could tweak the percentage or the rate of increase to suit your game.
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby merias » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:01 pm

Firemane wrote:Lenard Lakofka has some interesting ideas in his L4C The Lendore Isle Companion one of which might be used for the Fighter if you don't mind an extra dice roll. He uses weapon proficiencies to give fighters a 10% chance per level to deal an extra blow in a combat round. So the idea would to just straight up add this as a fighter ability. As the fighter increases in level the odds increase he gets an extra chance to hit and of course you could tweak the percentage or the rate of increase to suit your game.


That's a nice twist on weapon proficiency, which is usually the standard hit bonus/extra attack by level. I notice he gives extra blows to Clerics and Thieves as well, at a smaller percentage. Also, welcome to the fourms!
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Re: Playing Pure Fighters

Postby foxroe » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:04 am

merias wrote:
Firemane wrote:Lenard Lakofka has some interesting ideas in his L4C The Lendore Isle Companion one of which might be used for the Fighter if you don't mind an extra dice roll. He uses weapon proficiencies to give fighters a 10% chance per level to deal an extra blow in a combat round. So the idea would to just straight up add this as a fighter ability. As the fighter increases in level the odds increase he gets an extra chance to hit and of course you could tweak the percentage or the rate of increase to suit your game.

That's a nice twist on weapon proficiency, which is usually the standard hit bonus/extra attack by level. I notice he gives extra blows to Clerics and Thieves as well, at a smaller percentage. Also, welcome to the fourms!

It does sort of "spread the love" with extra attacks for Fighters, but it's really mathematically pretty much the same as the already existing (albeit fixed at higher levels) extra attacks for Fighters in AD&D, and it just adds another die roll to combat.

(5th level = 50% chance of extra attack) is the same as saying (Attacks three times per 2 rounds), and
(10th level = 100% chance of extra attack) is the same as saying (Attacks twice every round).

Maybe change that to "Attacks 3/2 at 4th level, and attacks 2/1 at 8th level" to keep it consistent with the "Hero" and "Superhero" thresholds of the original game instead of AD&D's 7th/13th level?

And I think that it should be a Fighter only thing. As soon as you start adding improved fighting capability to the other classes, the Fighter becomes less appealing as a character choice.
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