The Success of Basic Fantasy and S&W

[Mach Front]

On the other hand (to play my own devil's advocate): I'm a huge T&T geek. The classic Fifth Edition rules are super easy, but the rule book is super long-winded (though enjoyable atmospheric and goes a long way to communicating the vibe of the game). The UK Corgi versions of the solos (two-in-one, in fact) have a wonderfully truncated version of the rules (about 16 digest-sized pages). It actually gives so much that one could actually use said rules for near-campaign-level group adventures, despite that it dispenses with many of the races and has only two character "types": warrior and wizard. That is certainly enough to start. That's absolutely and inarguably archetypal.

So, where might something like leave us?

Fighters and Magic-Users.
Cut down spell list (cut down levels? Five?)
Monster list taken down to the most archetypal and mythological.
Cut adventuring rules (traps, secret doors, travel, dungeon and wilderness distance, etc.) to the barest needed minimum?
Treasure list on a Holmes Basic level presentation.

Something like that.

Though...sheesh...I still worry about even more and more flavors of S&W alone that even it's (S&W) own flavors confuses just as much as each and every retro-clone in general already confuses folks... Heh.

[Mach Front]

I mean, seriously, I've already encountered folks in OSR blog and G+ circles no less, who already are unaware/confused about S&W:WB and WB alone. Remember that there are still folks (OSR folks included) who are already/still confused about the three long-extant iterations of S&W.

I know I'm soon beating an already dead horse, but I really believe that the best thing that could happen to WB right now would be that White Box would be "S&W:WB".
I realize that's either not going to happen or is not likely but we have to recognize that that IS "a thing". Very odd position to be in.

Here. It's for the fans. Fans do stuff.
Fans: "WTF is all of this stuff, srsy?!?"
We: "Sigh. Man.....I dunno."

How in the world can we entice and easily/quickly educate and reconcile the flavors of S&W and 'growths' from S&W (though that's actually less difficult oddly, like say Simon West's games such as Sabres & Witchery) and all the while easily communicate the whole: "So there's S&W Core and it's this and also S&W:WB and it's this and also S&W: Complete and it's this, this and that and the other thing and also S&W:L is and intro to S&W:Complete....but you could use it as an intro to S&W Core...or you could use it as a quick start for WB, too...oh, and yeah, speaking of WB, there's the official version and there's also another version that exactly the same, but has more stuff...but it's still completely and totally WB, but it's not official so it's not S&W:WB, but rather "WB", so...umm..yeah....

[merias]

That was kind of what my original blog post was about, all of this stuff is scattered and there is no central place to get it. And (as often happens with long-term projects) the guy in charge of the official content is not interested in community interaction anymore, and no one can take his place.

The three versions - I can see how that would be confusing to newcomers to the S&W multiverse. And you are correct - the quickstart has a copyright of 2009, and the first WB edition I have says January 2009. So they at least overlapped while he was working on it, or WB had just come out.

But going back, the original quickstart I liked (I used it as a lapsed gamer back then) because it explained how to run an OSR adventure. Sure, it could be improved, like with adventuring packs as already mentioned, and with pregens. But I see it as all-inclusive, to be used by lapsed gamers and newcomers to S&W and newcomers to the OSR, and hell even experienced old-school gamers who need a quick one-off adventure one night. I don't see the light version being all of that (and it is not trying to be all of that).

[The Wanderer]

Interesting thoughts Mach.

I always thought of WB:FMAG to be used alongside the original. I didn't think of it as a one or the other situation. So kinda sucks if it is causing even more confusion about the game.

I'm almost done with my update (just the hardcovers left to do) and then maybe I'll take some time to see where it goes and what else I should do with it, if anything.

[merias]

Interesting thoughts Mach.

I always thought of WB:FMAG to be used alongside the original. I didn't think of it as a one or the other situation. So kinda sucks if it is causing even more confusion about the game.

I'm almost done with my update (just the hardcovers left to do) and then maybe I'll take some time to see where it goes and what else I should do with it, if anything.

I don't think your improved WB is adding more confusion, for my part if someone asks I will just give them that instead of the 3rd print WB. Yes it would be nice if yours was the official 4th print, would it be worth asking Matt? I mean he did say that he left WB to the community...not sure how far that extends, but worst-case he says no. I think the fact that WB is still sold by him personally in hardcover might complicate things.

[The Wanderer]

Yes it would be nice if yours was the official 4th print, would it be worth asking Matt? .

Nah, I wouldn't ask him. I just don't think it would be cool to say "I made this thing, you want to make it the official version?"

Besides, it is kind of nice to have control of it, so that I can release updates if needed.

[The Wanderer]

I don't think your improved WB is adding more confusion

I guess time will tell. Mach Front seems to have had a little different experience there.

I released the game about a month ago on PDF. Between OBS and Lulu, it has had 530 downloads. There was an initial rush at OBS. It peaked at #9 for top sellers for about a day, but it took a nose dive from there. The print books have sold 28 copies.

I'm telling you these numbers so you can see what impact the release has had. I have no idea if these numbers are good. It seems prevailing wisdom is there is an initial rush upon release and then things settle down. So those numbers will probably only go up very slowly from here.

[merias]

Those are pretty decent numbers! From what I've seen, most people want to know the differences between your version and the official WB release, they don't seem confused to me. But of course the initial adopters will tend to be more "into" the S&W community, I guess time will tell. I am optimistic .

[Mach Front]

Re: "confusion" -
No, I didn't mean to come off as being negative.
It's not that WB is "adding to the confusion". I was only attempting to explain/examine as to how even the three 'official' flavors of S&W take newcomers slightly off-guard. After the flavors are (easily) explained, they get it. White Box itself is something sorely needed and there was/is demand there. It must have been seen otherwise you wouldn't have taken up the torch to do so and provide it to the community.

It's not so much that it "adds to the confusion" but rather can be so due to the fact that it isn't 'official' S&W. This is why I said and believe S&W as a whole would be better off if White Box was the 'official S&W:WB. Does that make a bit more sense?

Also, I was writing in the context of the three flavors + White Box + the older S&W Quick Start + the forthcoming S&W: Lite as an entire environment.

I don't think more flavors of S&W are a bad thing. However, the main flavors crossed with (I believe there should be a number of them...) fan-made iterations and an older (and well-made and still useful ....and I think should simply be updated) quick start and a new 'quick start' that may or may not be a 'quick start' and having a whole new name as if it itself is yet another entire flavor of S&W...S&W Lite.

it's getting a bit weird. It may not be so if, as Merias points out, the original creator was still the vibrant and visible voice he once was and the official site and forums were still as active as they were between '08-'10.

I have to wonder if it may be less so if the license (and it maybe, I honestly do not know) allowed for the title of a fan-made S&W-based game to boldly proclaim so on it's cover. That is to say if White Box could be allowed to say "Powered by Swords & Wizardry" or "A Swords & Wizardry game" or some such. Maybe. Maybe? *shrug*

[Mach Front]

I think all White Box needs (though, honestly it doesn't really need it) is more blogosphere and G+ coverage. That stuff spreads and spreads quick in the close-knit OSR community. When it does/has folks familiar can educate those gamers that are not normally within those spheres.
Even today folks on, say, RPG.net ask questions about S&W:WB and/or Core and/or Complete and they get a number of solid and elucidating answers.
This could happen as long as the usual suspects who do so are well aware of White Box.

To be brutally honest, if not the new official edition of WB, I wonder if White Box may be better off with an entirely new/different name/branding.