Magic Users and preparing spells

[rpggamingstuff]

Hi all, new member, nice to meet you.

I'm new to OSR rpgs, but I've played other more recent ones.

Question about preparing spells, just wondering if I'm missing something.

On youtube and google searches people keep saying that a Magic User gets to cast one spell a day, but that's not how I'm reading it in the book for FMAG.

On the MU chart it just says 1 Spell at lvl 1(p.17), but doesn't say per day. And in the combat section it says that you can prepare a spell, cast it, then spend a round preparing another spell(p.35. You can even prepare a spell while in melee range(p.41). It doesn't even say that you have to use the same spell, just that it's one at a time.

Are the people saying you get to only cast one spell a day just defaulting to what they remember from another version of the game, or am I missing something?

I haven't looked it up in S&W to see what it says, I'll go look at it, just out of curiosity.

Thanks!

[merias]

Welcome to the forum! I'll have to check to be sure , but I seem to recall that the FMAG rules refer to spells per adventure. The per-adventure wording is in the 1974 original rules that FMAG is based on, although those original rules are also clear that a spell once cast cannot be cast again the same day. So yes, the intent is that MUs can cast a number of spells per day as noted in their spell chart, and that should definitely be more explicit if it is not stated in the FMAG rules.

[merias]

Thanks for the great question, btw - I ended up going down a rabbit hole to research this . I found the reference to "adventure" - on page 45 of the FMAG rules (from the 2nd printing, which is the one available on DTRPG):

Magic-Users are the only classes that can cast spells. Spells have three phases. First they are memorized (a character can only memorize a certain number of spells to bring along on an adventure – see the description of the character classes to find out how many, and what level).

This is almost the exact text that is in the last (3rd) printing S&W White Box that FMAG is based on, and is similar to what is in the original Men & Magic, on page 19 (below is from the 1st printing - typo is part of the text):

Spells & Levels: The number above each column is the spell level (complexity, a somewhat subjective determination on the part of your authors). The number in each column opposite each applicable character indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during single any adventure) by that character. Spells are listed and explained later.

So there is no mention of spells per day there, but interestingly, in later OD&D prints a clarifying sentence was tacked on to the end of the paragraph (emphasis added, from the OCE reprint):

Spells & Levels: The number above each column is the spell level (complexity, a somewhat subjective determination on the part of your authors). The number in each column opposite each applicable character indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure) by that character. Spells are listed and explained later. A spell used once may not be reused in the same day.

I suspect players in the 70s had the same question you did . I've always thought that S&W WB was based on the very 1st printing of 1974 D&D, and this adds more credence to that (the sleep spell hit die ranges in S&W WB and FMAG are also from the OD&D 1st print, although Charlie fixed that in his latest FMAG 2020 printing).

[rpggamingstuff]

Ah, the 'adventure' reference is what I was missing, thanks for that!
Also thanks for going down the research rabbit hole.
Kind of a bummer, it seems to be pretty harsh, and a way for the MU to not be very fun at low levels, but I'll give it a good try, I'm guessing the MU player is meant to be as careful and clever with their tools as they can to survive.

[merias]

Ah, the 'adventure' reference is what I was missing, thanks for that!
Also thanks for going down the research rabbit hole.
Kind of a bummer, it seems to be pretty harsh, and a way for the MU to not be very fun at low levels, but I'll give it a good try, I'm guessing the MU player is meant to be as careful and clever with their tools as they can to survive.

That's pretty standard in the older D&D games. MUs were meant to be relatively weak at low levels, but if your MU PC survived, they became very powerful at high levels. That said, the classic sleep spell with no save is the MUs secret weapon, and some of the other 1st level spells can be used in creative ways - like casting light in an opponent's eyes to blind them.

Chris Gonnerman, who created the Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game, wrote a couple of blog posts that address this very issue.

https://basicfantasy.org/blog/?p=151
https://basicfantasy.org/blog/?p=255

His main point was that _any_ first level PC will survive perhaps one fight, then have to retreat to rest and heal. So MUs are no different with one spell per day as far as usefulness.

However, there are ways to address this, and if you really want MUs to start with more spells, do it! It's your game, after all, so do whatever you think is fun. There is no wrong way to play. Common house rules include allowing scroll creation at low levels, or GMs can plant scrolls in dungeons for MUs to find, or allow an extra 1st level spell for PCs with a high INT. In my own games, I like to start MUs with one scroll, a gift from their master. So they get two spells per day from the get-go.

Still, if I had to give one piece of advice to someone new to old-school gaming, I'd say it would be to play the OSR games as they are, without the baggage of more modern games, just to get the experience. Then, when you do want to change things (this is inevitable), go ahead and house rule.

[rpggamingstuff]

Thanks for the links, it makes sense to look at it from that perspective. I'll make sure to try it this way. It's mostly solo play anyway these days, but my son likes to try new games with me as well, so we'll run something.

[William]

Hi rpggamingstuff!

Chris Gonnerman's advice about Magic Users using Daggers to throw, plus being able to easily afford other equipment such as ropes and spikes (as they don't have to spend their money on armour and large weapons) is good advice, and it would make the Magic User fun to play at even 1st level. Merias' advice about playing rules as written when you first get going is also good advice too, as this will really help you to get to grips with the feel of the game. But, when it comes round to house ruling your game (which you may end up wanting to do) S&W Core plus S&W Complete rule it so that the Magic User has a INT based random chance to learn each spell, and at 1st level they can make a "learn roll" for each and every 1st level spell. Those that they successfully learn are in their spell book, and this may obviously result in multiple spells, though they will still be restricted to memorising the one spell a day until they move up to 2nd level.

As far as I can see this isn't part of S&W White Box or FMAG (I have a hardback copy of S&W White Box, and a PDF of FMAG). Perhaps it might be something that you want to adopt into your own games when the time comes to make some house rules? Combined with Chris Gonnerman's advice it would surely make the Magic User a bit more of a tactician.

S&W Core is available as a free PDF on drivethrurpg and as a free ebook on Lulu. Alternatively you could always come up with an INT based random learning system yourself if you don't want your game "contaminating" with rules from Core or Complete.

There are other options, and these could obviously be adopted into the White Box system, but I fully understand if you want to keep things "pure" S&W / FMAG, as I'm an OD&D fan too.

It's just my 2 cents on the matter, and just a possibility for your game. Do whatever suits your play style!

Bill

[rpggamingstuff]

Thanks William,
Definitely open to house rules and modding if they make things easier or more fun.
I guess it's about learning the mindset of the game, how it's meant to be played. It's not obvious how to run and play, but that may be another thread.

I'm looking at stuff like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57lzcEptp38
and
https://grumpywizard.home.blog/2023/03/ ... agic-user/

and it's helping to build up the mental model of how interaction between GM and player are meant to be, and how the GM is meant to run the game to give the Magic User a chance to feel consequential. (hand out more scrolls, hehe)

I've spent time playing pathfinder and 5e, and they're fun in their context. But these days there isn't a huge amount of spare leisure time, so I'm exploring systems with fewer rules to help people get on board with the game.

(off topic maybe:) I'm even looking at games like Cairn, just a few page of rules, that kind of thing.

I'm old-ish (48) but didn't play DnD at all as a kid, so I have no nostalgia about purity of the game. Just want to have a good time and role-play and roll some dice.

[William]

I'm 48 too! Stop putting yourself down - you're not old in the slightest

I played D&D as a kid with BECMI at primary school, and 2e at high school, but I drifted away after school due to not having a gaming group. I came back in the noughties with Call Of Cthulhu, and found out that I didn't like it (unfortunately I took a few years to realise), so I worked my way back round to D&D. I back ported myself to OD&D (via S&W), AD&D 1e, and B/X D&D, as I discovered that I prefer them as games to the versions I played in my youth AND the newer editions too. I tend to find them more evocative and flavourful.

Yeah Cairn is a good game. I have the PDFs of it and I've had a good look at them, but I've yet to run it though I am hoping to eventually. I'm currently busy getting ready to run a new campaign in Blackmoor using S&W Complete, with some stuff from B/X thrown in order to cover the obligatory "OD&D gaps". We (me and my gaming group) will be starting the new campaign in January.

Thanks for the links I'm going to check them out, and good luck with your Magic User house ruling.

Bill

[William]

I guess it's about learning the mindset of the game, how it's meant to be played. It's not obvious how to run and play, but that may be another thread.

I know that in some ways this could be another thread, but this one already exists and so it's easy to quote and reach you here. I found this whilst surfing the net, plus there's some other stuff listed on the same page, including some more stuff by The Grumpy Wizard.

youtube.com/watch?v=bWRPXFJ8B18

Bill