Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

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merias
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Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by merias »

From https://smolderingwizard.wordpress.com/ ... nitiative/

I’ve been running a Swords & Wizardry play-by-post game for the past year or so and have been using dexterity (DEX)-based initiative. In the S&W Core and Complete rules, this is the “Blue Book” combat method, so-called as it is based on the blue covered Holmes Basic D&D, which described using DEX to order combat actions (while the 1977 Holmes Basic book is not freely available, the BLUEHOLME Prentice rules are both free and a decent clone of the original).

When combat begins, I’ll roll DEX on the spot for the monsters, and proceed from there. So rolling DEX and ordering the combatants is done just once – then, during each combat round, actions proceed in DEX order. In the event of tied dexterities, I consider the attacks to be simultaneous. The only exception to the DEX order is that prepared spells are always cast first in the round (this is part of the S&W rules-as-written). Because the DEX rolls and ordering are done up-front, after the first round, combat tends to be fast. I’ve noticed, however, some problems.
  1. Luck tends to have a longer lasting impact on combat, when compared to side-based initiative that is rolled every round. If the referee rolls high for monster DEX, and you have even average DEX rolls in the party, you will get stuck going last each round.
  2. Conversely, if the players got lucky and have PCs with a lot of high DEX scores, most of the combats will be unbalanced in favor of the party. This isn’t normally bad by itself, but you want the players to survive combats by using good tactics, not solely through one lucky roll at character creation.
  3. OD&D, upon which S&W is based, describes abstract combat. DEX-based initiative is at odds with that unless you treat all the monsters of the same type as having the same DEX (this is a suggested rule in S&W). It feels a little too precise to have an explicit order for every combatant in each round.
  4. OD&D also minimized the impact of both high and low ability scores, but using DEX-based initiative inflates the importance of DEX.
Compare this to the standard side-based or individual initiative, where the players and monsters roll every round and the order can change from round-to-round. This allows luck (good or bad) effects to happen at any time, and as a player feels more meaningful (or surprising), in my opinion.

A method I’ve settled on when I’m running games for my gaming group is to use side-based, d6 initiative, but allow players with a high DEX (13 or more) to act first, or to make players with a low DEX (8 or less) act last, but only in the event of tied d6 rolls. This gives some players a slight advantage (or disadvantage), but doesn’t amplify the affects of a high or low DEX score either way.

If you wanted to keep DEX-based initiative, but fix some of the issues I listed above, you could use the method described in the Holmes rules – forego simultaneous attacks for matching DEX scores, and roll a d6 for scores within 1-2 points of each other, each round. This results in a lot more rolling (the average 3d6 roll is 9-12, so a good portion of the total initiative rolls will end up being be d6 opposed rolls with this method, and not all strictly DEX-based).

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William
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by William »

I'm about to start running a new campaign (in the new year 2024) based in Blackmoor. I've managed to track down a copy of Dave Arneson's The First Fantasy Campaign (for a mere £60 in a private sale!), plus I've ordered reprints of Dave's DA1-4 releases for TSR that he did in the 1980s. In the campaign I'm using the new Swords & Wizardry Complete, but instead of filling out any gaps in the rules with rules from AD&D 1e I'm going to be using rules from B/X D&D OR just improvising a ruling. This keeps the game simpler and probably more in the spirit of Blackmoor.
I've been considering using B/X's Initiative adjustments for Dexterity, combined with everyone rolling for their own individual Initiative on 1D6:

DEX Initiative Adjustment
3..................-2
4-8.................-1
9-12.................0
13-17..............+1
18.................+2

This could be made more minimalist if one desires it:

DEX Initiative Adjustment
3-8...................-1
9-12...................0
13-18................+1

Also, combatants using two handed weapons automatically lose Initiative. This doesn't make sense for Pole Arms if the opponent is outside the range of the Pole Arm, but it can be house ruled that in this circumstance the user of the Pole Arm automatically wins, but has to drop the Pole Arm and use another weapon if the opponent makes their way within the range of the Pole Arm. This takes up one action for that round.
Also, any tied results can either be
a) re-rolled or
b) remain tied, resulting in simultaneous action for that round.

I suppose another option would be to use the optional S&W Method 3 for Initiative, which creates a six segment combat round similar to (but not exactly the same as) the system proposed in Supplement 3 for OD&D. This brings things nearer to AD&D territory though. I was using a simplified version of the Weapon Speed system from AD&D, but I have reverted to using simpler rules to flesh out any gaps or to create house rules in S&W.

One problem with the above adjustment systems is group Initiative for mass combat. A solution is to use the most favourable Dexterity within the group, using the theory that others will follow that combatant's lead.

Bill
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by rredmond »

I run a 1e game, but that’s awful similar to how I run my initiative!

I DM a Skype game. No fancy VTTs or white boards. If I want to show a portion of a map or sketch or something I text it to the players. So I partially developed my system based on keeping everyone involved a moving.

It’s d10 individual initiative, modified by DEX, CT and weapon DAM. It’s all good fun. :)
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by merias »

William wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:51 am
Also, combatants using two handed weapons automatically lose Initiative. This doesn't make sense for Pole Arms if the opponent is outside the range of the Pole Arm, but it can be house ruled that in this circumstance the user of the Pole Arm automatically wins, but has to drop the Pole Arm and use another weapon if the opponent makes their way within the range of the Pole Arm. This takes up one action for that round.
Also, any tied results can either be
a) re-rolled or
b) remain tied, resulting in simultaneous action for that round.
I've noticed people tend to ignore the B/X rule about 2-handed weapons going last. I've always wanted to try it and see how it plays, however.

On the polearm - I can't say I've ever had a player or even NPC use one. But you could have long weapons (include the spear in this) get first attack in the first round, then lose initiative to shorter weapons in subsequent rounds.

There was also a neat initiative method in the JG Ready Ref Sheets, I wrote a blog post about it, but here is the image of the weapon priority table:

Image

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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by rredmond »

Image
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by rredmond »

Going to have to give those RRS a re-reaad. :)
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by William »

I've never used the RRS because I've never heard of them until now. It's something to study and consider using. Thanks for posting it.

Bill
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by William »

rredmond wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:01 am
I run a 1e game, but that’s awful similar to how I run my initiative!

I DM a Skype game. No fancy VTTs or white boards. If I want to show a portion of a map or sketch or something I text it to the players. So I partially developed my system based on keeping everyone involved a moving.

It’s d10 individual initiative, modified by DEX, CT and weapon DAM. It’s all good fun. :)
That sounds like a good way to run an online game.
Please excuse my stupidity, but.........

What's CT? :?:
Combat Tactics?
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by rredmond »

Sorry! Casting Time :)
Not gonna lie, that one I haven't consistently done. I wanted to add the chance of spell interruption. It's easier to say "you have a two-handed sword, so I'm subtracting two from your rolled initiative" than to hear the moaning of a caster having to look up their casting time :D But we'll get there! I figure your rolled initiative is casting segment 1, and if you get hit between that segment and the time the spell goes off, you lose the spell. But I'm a rules light sorta DM, so it's been hard to get jazzed by that. But now that they've hit mid-levels, we've been playing since April 2020, it'll definitely be more important.

Thanks for the compliment too William!
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Re: Musings on Dexterity-based Initiative

Post by William »

Of course! ;)
Why didn't I think of Casting Time?
Duh!

Most people (nearly everyone) end up doing some house ruling with the AD&D 1e Initiative system. Byzantine is one way of putting it.
I personally use the Weapon Speed and Casting Time numbers, but ignore multiple attacks caused by the difference in segments. The only people who can make multiple attacks in my AD&D games are Fighters and Fighter sub-classes with armed combat, plus Fighters, Fighter sub-classes, and Monks with unarmed combat. It just gets too complicated otherwise, especially combined with the potential for one party to be surprised.

Bill
Last edited by William on Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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